Rumble in veggie land
I may be quite new to all this, but I’m beginning to notice that in the blogosphere there is a distinct divide between vegetarians and vegans. Now, I’ve always considered them, us, as nearly them same, kindred spirits, birds of a feather. But it seems I may be wrong.
Most of the best blogs I’ve come across have been vegan blogs, I have to admit. And I reckon this is because vegans are more marginalised and more extreme in their views, and hence more conscious of and vocal about their beliefs?
Despite the fact that many vegetarians stopped eating meat because of cruelty to animals (though not me, I was born veggie, remember), in most cases, in my experience, it was largely an emotional response. They just couldn’t face eating the lovely lambs that gambolled so gaily in the fields, that kind of thing. Many vegetarians also say they never really liked the taste of meat.
But vegans, well, they usually begin their explanation with: “The more I found out about …” This is only my experience, but it seems veganism is more of an intellectual response. I mean, eating honey isn’t so obviously “wrong”, emotionally, in the same way as meat is, which is obviously a dead animal that was once living. It is only when you learn how it is produced, and think about it, that you begin to go off it.
I only say all this because I’m trying to understand the distinct sense of antipathy vegans in the blogosphere [is that a word?] have towards vegetarians. And I think it may be because they see us as half-arsed animal lovers, maybe even a bit soft because even though we can't face eating meat, we’re not strong enough to follow the argument through to its conclusion and realise that it’s just as bad to eat other animal products.
But, you see, as a vegetarian, I’m not following an argument. I just don’t like meat and don’t want to eat meat. I have an emotional palate. Is that bad? Are we the New Labour to the vegan’s Socialism, wanting a fairer system, but not willing to completely rewrite the rulebook? Maybe. But I think vegans should realise that the emotional response is important, and while they may be the real embodiment of civilisation I claimed for vegetarians in an earlier post, our hearts are all in the same place. So let’s be friends, hey?
Most of the best blogs I’ve come across have been vegan blogs, I have to admit. And I reckon this is because vegans are more marginalised and more extreme in their views, and hence more conscious of and vocal about their beliefs?
Despite the fact that many vegetarians stopped eating meat because of cruelty to animals (though not me, I was born veggie, remember), in most cases, in my experience, it was largely an emotional response. They just couldn’t face eating the lovely lambs that gambolled so gaily in the fields, that kind of thing. Many vegetarians also say they never really liked the taste of meat.
But vegans, well, they usually begin their explanation with: “The more I found out about …” This is only my experience, but it seems veganism is more of an intellectual response. I mean, eating honey isn’t so obviously “wrong”, emotionally, in the same way as meat is, which is obviously a dead animal that was once living. It is only when you learn how it is produced, and think about it, that you begin to go off it.
I only say all this because I’m trying to understand the distinct sense of antipathy vegans in the blogosphere [is that a word?] have towards vegetarians. And I think it may be because they see us as half-arsed animal lovers, maybe even a bit soft because even though we can't face eating meat, we’re not strong enough to follow the argument through to its conclusion and realise that it’s just as bad to eat other animal products.
But, you see, as a vegetarian, I’m not following an argument. I just don’t like meat and don’t want to eat meat. I have an emotional palate. Is that bad? Are we the New Labour to the vegan’s Socialism, wanting a fairer system, but not willing to completely rewrite the rulebook? Maybe. But I think vegans should realise that the emotional response is important, and while they may be the real embodiment of civilisation I claimed for vegetarians in an earlier post, our hearts are all in the same place. So let’s be friends, hey?
posted by Adharanand Finn at 11:02 PM
14 Comments:
My only response would be that if you know better and still continue to consume the products of exploitation like milk -- let's forget about honey for the minute -- you're essentially part of the problem, not part of the solution. I think your analogy about politics is faulty in this instance.
Remember, because of the way milk and eggs are produced, there's no way to avoid the death inherent in the system. If that bothers you and you continue to do otherwise, then you're knowingly going against your own gut reaction against killing those animals in the fields that you write about.
I also think that this misses some real differences between vegan and vegetarian worldviews that help to understand what's going on in the difference between vegetarians and vegans.
As longtime vegan I would like to comment. The egg industry is by far the most cruel of all industries that turn animals and there reproductive tissue into "food". Every dollar for dairy is .25 cents for veal since it is a by product.
For Vegans it is impossible not to see the connections. We don't think we are better than the people who are veggie so we expect them to make similar changes in lifestyle when they learn the facts.
most vegans went through a time when they were 'vegetarian' but we have no greater strength than you do, you can be Vegan if you wanted to.
There is the real issue. Do you really want to end animal suffering or do just enough to make yourself feel comfortable.
>> "I have an emotional palate. Is that bad?"
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
>> "Are we the New Labour to the vegan’s Socialism, wanting a fairer system, but not willing to completely rewrite the rulebook?"
Yes.
>> "But I think vegans should realise that the emotional response is important..."
You are not looking at the larger view, only your own self-centered experience (I mean that in a literal way, not trying to call you names)
Your "emotional response," whatever that may be, is not as "important" as the cruelty that is inherent in dairy and egg production. Have you educated yourself even a little about how milk and eggs are produced? It might be a good idea to do so, before you decide that your "emotions" supersede incredible suffering on the part of other creatures.
Take a few minutes to look into the "byproduct" industries and you will realise that every single one, especially eggs and dairy, result in extended torture and death for the animals involved. I'd be happy to provide you with resources -- not just resources put forth by animal advocates, but by the industries themselves.
So let’s be friends, hey?
Let me preface this with the disclaimer that all vegans seem to need when pointing out flaws in others: I'm not holier-than-thou, I'm angry that animals are suffering, and this makes my responses a little terse. It's pretty bad of me to have no patience when it comes to the crackhead excuses that others make when it comes to the cruelty industries -- but the animals can't afford patience. They are suffering now, and I have to do something about it.
Now, I back up what all of the other vegans have said, but I would like to add that, while we seem to be on the same side to you (making animals' lives better), my goal as a vegan is not to make animals' lives better -- that, as with all self-sufficient people, is their job -- but to give them the freedom to live their lives how they want, not how someone else dictates they should live. I doubt any hawk would trade their freedom for a gilded cage.
This may seem callous and coldhearted to you, but it's not to anyone that has a worldview that animals are our equals whether we like it or not -- and that they are, as such, perfectly capable of taking care of themselves.
Should we help those that are injured? Yes, because then their ability to cope has been taken away, just like it is in any debilitated human.
My point is that I have a problem with you saying that we're on the same side when we're not at all. I am for emptier cages and the abolition of both human and nonhuman slavery. You, said by your own choices of "food", are for shinier cages and slightly nicer slavery.
You see, veganism is not a welfarist position (i.e. that animals are fine to exploit as long as we do it nicely), it is an abolitionist position (i.e. that animals are not for our use in exploitation, period). If we took the welfarist position we wouldn't be vegan, we'd be these crackhead "conscientious" carnists eating "kind" (ha fucking ha) dead animal and "kind" eggs and dairy.
You believe that you can exploit my friends, even though they have their babies taken away on a regular basis (dairy cows) and spend their entire lives crammed into places so crowded they can't form any decent social bond (layer hens).
Friends don't exploit friends or the friends of friends.
I see your point and I understand it but for me I have other worries in my life. I am debating if I should go through with a circumcision or not. After much soul searhing I have decided that I will have half a circumcision. That way its a safe bet and I will not be giving it up completely.
Thanks for all the comments. I just get the feeling that as a vegetarian (and by the way I don't eat eggs, and almost never drink milk - I never buy it anyway), but as a vegetarian I come under stronger criticism from vegans than I would if I was a full blooded oh-there's-a-rabbit-that-would-be-good-for-dinner-let's-shoot-it-yum-yum-hee-hee carnivore. I understand your ire, of course, but I still think we're shooting towards the same goal. As someone said, most vegans were vegetarians first. Not many people who get circumsised start with a half-cut. That would be stupid. Vegetarianism isn't stupid. It's a step in the same dirrection. No?
For further reading, if you so desier it, can I point you towards a thread I started on this issue on veggieboards [http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=56614]. A lot of faff was posted, but a lot of interesting points of view also. It sure is a thorny subject, mind.
If we vegans are harder on vegetarians than we are on omnivores, it's because, like you said, most of us have been vegetarians in the past. We're hoping to make you see whatever it was that convinced us, because as a vegetarian you'll probably be more receptive to it than a typical omni would. I myself was a vegatarian for over a decade. I knew very little about factory farms and even less about egg and dairy production. When I finally found out, all I could say was "Why didn't anyone tell me sooner? Why doesn't everyone know this?" I was angry that I'd been lulled into supporting these industries for so many years by the widely held but grossly inaccurate assumption that they don't hurt the animals. If anyone would have told me sooner, I'd have gone vegan on the spot, and I'd hope that as someone compassionate enough to put the lives of animals ahead of their own palate, any vegetarian would, too. But, if you know that dairy cows are forcefully impregnated every year, that their calves are taken from them at less than three days old and turned into veal, that they spend their lives in dirty stalls hooked up to painful milking machines, and that at about five years old (a quarter of their natural lifespan), when their milk production wanes, they are slaughtered for low-grade ground beef, and still continue to consume dairy, then you have shown yourself to be a hypocrite and I'll take the ignorant omnivore any day.
Shooting towards the same goal? Not if you know better yet refuse to see it through. I'm fighting for empty cages, not bigger ones.
I used to think that vegans were nuts. That being said, the cows and chickens who provide milk and eggs are kept alive longer than the animals we eat. How could I continue as a vegetarian after I learned this? (I would like to state that I always thought all animal products were disgusting anyway, so that made it easier.)
[quote]If we vegans are harder on vegetarians than we are on omnivores, it's because, like you said, most of us have been vegetarians in the past. We're hoping to make you see whatever it was that convinced us, because as a vegetarian you'll probably be more receptive to it than a typical omni would.[/quote]
Nicely put. And besides, if you don't eat eggs or buy milk, why not just take the leap?
"And besides, if you don't eat eggs or buy milk, why not just take the leap?"
I'll pose a question: Could it have to do with not wanting to be associated with a stereotype? (however innacurate that may be)
if one would base their compassion on something as trivial as "not wanting to be associated with a stereotype," there's no hope for them. just be a vegan and don't TELL people about it then!
As a vegan, I agree with most of the comments from vegans posted here. But. I thought the responses were a little harsh. My initial thoughts when first reading were post was: Yes, lets me friends! :)
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